Arrow: Andrew Kreisberg Talks About The State Of Oliver & Laurel

Craig Byrne April 14, 2014 143

League Of AssassinsAfter a screening that was held today showing off the next two action-packed episodes of Arrow (read our impressions of “The Man Under The Hood” here), Executive Producer Andrew Kreisberg participated in a press Q&A where he talked a bit about what is coming up between now and the end of Season 2. Among the topics discussed — and one we got a lot of questions about on our Twitter feed –  was the current status of the relationship between Oliver and Laurel, especially now that – with the end of “Deathstroke” – she knows about his alter ego.

Kreisberg appealed to the iconic comic book pairing as being like “Lois and Clark” – “they can break up, get together, sleep together, break up, get married, get divorced, she forgets him,” he points out… but he did admit that with the success of the show, “Lauriver” is one of those things that they can take their time on.

Blind Spot“It’s always our desire to just speed through story,” Kreisberg admitted.” I think the fans appreciate that, just blowing through things and not [saving] like ‘well, we’ll do that in Season 4.’ No. We’ll do that now. On the other hand, the one thing success has enabled us to do is to slow play some things, and I think that we’ve really adopted this mantra – we give people what they need, even if that’s not what they want,” he explained.

“Having Oliver and Laurel get together in Season 1 was what people needed then, but then they needed them to go on a break, so Oliver can have his storyline with Sara for this season, which is what felt right to us. He has women in his life. He has Laurel, he has Felicity… Helena’s doing a 10-to-20 stretch… so I think that Laurel will always be one of the closest people to him, whether that’s romantic or not,” Andrew continued.

Kreisberg is well aware that some fans have questioned decisions and the sanity of the folks bringing Arrow to life, and that inevitably, some fans will be upset, but there is a plan. “I think that a lot of the things that we have done, have been leading up to what we’re doing in the finale, and then moving that forward to Season 3,” he said.

Arrow returns with “The Man Under The Hood” Wednesday, April 16 at 8PM on The CW.



143 Comments »

  1. Trish April 14, 2014 at 2:49 pm - Reply

    And just like that he’s managed to disseminate the excitement built over the last episode and the previews and piss off an entire fanbase that was just beginning to love the show again. Good Luck Arrow. Thanks for the memories.

  2. Jess April 14, 2014 at 2:55 pm - Reply

    The Arrow writers realize they are INSANE if they still try to sell us the Oliver and Laurel love story after this season, right?

  3. b April 14, 2014 at 2:58 pm - Reply

    Laurel is a horribly written character. They can’t decide what they want to do with her (other than shoehorn her into scenes into which she does not logically fit), so they write her ten different ways, none of which are consistent or interesting.

    About halfway through this season, I started muting any scene she appeared in, and my enjoyment of the show increased.

    There are other characters who are much more deserving of some of the unwarranted screentime devoted to Snorel. Moira comes first to mind – a great character portrayed by a fabulous actress who has been criminally underused.

    • BeFastOrDontBe April 15, 2014 at 8:40 am - Reply

      Because Felicity fits into every scene she is in, right? Like when she walked down the stairs with food just so she could answer a phone that any of the other three characters already in the room could have answered! Please.

      • Lauren April 15, 2014 at 9:29 am - Reply

        Well, that was her phone…she was the one actually being called. Not the others.

      • b April 15, 2014 at 10:20 am - Reply

        I’m not sure what this random Felicity hit has to do with me thinking the character of Laurel is a poorly written plot device, but I’ll try to address it in good faith anyway?

        Felicity is a member of Team Arrow and is very often (mostly) seen in the lair/cave/club/whatever people are calling it, so yes, she fit in that scene.

        If I’m not mistaken, it was her phone that was ringing, so I’m not sure why any of the other characters would be expected to answer it. If there was a direct line to the hideout that was ringing, sure, anyone would be expected to pick up, but most people don’t bother even looking at others’ phones when they’re ringing.

  4. Katie April 14, 2014 at 3:49 pm - Reply

    I just threw up a little in my mouth. don’t you dare compare this pile of cow dung “couple” to the iconic Lois and Clark.
    Oliver and Laurel have no chemistry, and are a total waste of screen time. they almost turned me off watching Arrow. He slept with her sister – their relationship is worthless. Thank goodness for the action, the dynamic of Team Arrow, characters such as John Diggle and Felicity Smoak. And how the totally improved Oliver’s characterization half way through season 1.

    I’m actually offended but this. Just no.

    • BeFastOrDontBe April 15, 2014 at 8:41 am - Reply

      There are a million other great reasons to watch Arrow but Lauriver almost made you turn it off? Seems like you really aren’t interested in Arrow at all.

  5. Kath April 14, 2014 at 3:58 pm - Reply

    Of all the women who are potential relationships for Oliver, the one with Laurel is the worst. There is no chemistry and at this point there is no logic to them any more. Laurel is the one who understands Oliver the least of Sara, Felicity, Thea, Diggle and yes, even Moira.

    In the words of Kenny Rogers, “You have to know when to hold ‘em, know when to fold ‘em, know when to walk away, know when to run” and they should be running away from putting Oliver and Laurel into a relationship if they want to have a season 4.

    Keep her on the show if they can figure out how to incorporate her into the storyline again, but never back into a relationship with Oliver.

  6. RedLily April 14, 2014 at 4:05 pm - Reply

    Excellent interview, thanks AK for reinforcing to everyone that it is and always will be Oliver and Laurel as the OTP on Arrow.
    Yes haters, there are many Laurel fans, and we have faith in TPTB on Arrow, they are the true fans of GA/BC and no amount of hate will make them change direction, thank goodness

    Olicity who? Lol

    • b April 14, 2014 at 4:24 pm - Reply

      Just FYI – not everyone who is completely bored to tears by this mishandled mess of a character is an Olicity shipper.

    • Trish April 14, 2014 at 5:33 pm - Reply

      I’m no clairvoyant, but bringing in a better Black Canary option and pairing Oliver with her sister right in her face seems like a change in direction to me. Add that to the fact that they’re paring Oliver up with Felicity next….and it all seems like they’re trying to pick up the slack in areas that she simply couldn’t deliver. Yet, you’re right, damn if they don’t keep trying. Looks like they’re willing to bring down the whole show to make it work. Guess they’ll have to lose even more than the over 1.4 MILLION they’ve already lost since season one. But hey, take comfort in the fact that your GA/BC are endgame…after he runs out of all other options. Peace.

  7. LadyS April 14, 2014 at 4:40 pm - Reply

    Bleegh.

    This guy is kidding himself if he thinks that Laurel is anything other than the least interesting, least likeable, least root-worthy character on this show.

    If he seriously thinks he can cram Lauriver down the throats of a fanbase that was done with her by mid-season 1, he’s going to find himself getting the reality check he needs, rather than the ratings that he wants.

  8. ack April 14, 2014 at 5:20 pm - Reply

    Wow…I always thought it was Marc Guggenheim who was clueless about the state of Laurel-Oliver but now it is clear. It’s definitely Andrew Kreisberg. In a way, I’m glad I read this interview so I can jump ship now. I can’t swallow the Oliver-Laurel love triangle. I might have been able to before Sara, but now…NO. FREAKING. WAY. I could never be with anyone my sister also slept with…

    Um..AK knows that Lois never had a sister, right?

    • Craig Byrne April 14, 2014 at 5:33 pm - Reply

      Lois Lane actually does have a sister; her name is Lucy.

      • ack April 14, 2014 at 5:41 pm - Reply

        Whaddaya know, I learn something new every day…Did Clark ever cheat on Lois with Lucy?

        • Craig Byrne April 14, 2014 at 5:43 pm - Reply

          To be entirely honest, I totally blocked out from my memory the last appearance of Lucy Lane on Smallville because it was not a very good episode.

          In the comics? I don’t think so, either, but also this is Clark Kent we’re talking about. Clark Kent doesn’t even cheat on his taxes.

        • Russ Burlingame April 14, 2014 at 6:58 pm - Reply

          In Superman (The New 52) #12, Lois sets Lucy and Clark up on a date. Apparently it didn’t go all that well because the next week he was dating Wonder Woman.

          • BeFastOrDontBe April 15, 2014 at 8:59 am -

            Icky. Lois and Clark should never date again. I kid, I kid.

          • Craig Byrne April 15, 2014 at 9:10 am -

            Thank you, Dan DiDio ;)

  9. Lauren April 14, 2014 at 5:29 pm - Reply

    If they try to force Laurel and Oliver again they will lose a lot of viewers. First of all, they have zero chemistry. The vibe between Stephen and Katie feels like they’re barely even acquaintances. Sorry, but this is not some epic Lois and Clark love. No matter what you write, it’s just not believable. If the writers hook them up again it will be a complete insult to the character of Laurel. Oliver cheated on her with her sister and then gets back together with Sara immediately after Laurel even finds out she’s alive. Oliver cheating on her with Sara and their “deaths” was the catalyst to so many of the Lance family’s problems. Oliver’s romantic relationships with the Lance sisters are toxic. I’d rather him end up alone than with either of them.

    • Lauren April 14, 2014 at 8:19 pm - Reply

      ^My post too^ – I keep thinking about this and continually get more disgusted by the thought of the writers forcing this toxic relationship again. It fell flat the first season, you currently have your precious canon Arrow/Canary via Sara, so move on and stop beating the dead horse. The writers seem to have tried their best to make Laurel unlikable (which I really don’t understand if they’re planning O/L endgame!?) and the cherry on top for the Laurel haters would be her getting back with a guy who cheated on her and was basically the catalyst that tore her family apart. This show is not known for writing women well but that is taking it too far. Ugh I wish I hadn’t got so invested in this show lol. Then again, we must remember the producers continually go back and forth with their comments trying to get people talking so who knows what they actually have planned.

  10. Amy April 14, 2014 at 5:57 pm - Reply

    It is actually quite funny how the writers can’t see a sinking ship at all. Laurel has constantly been the character that receives the most hate and criticism, especially when she’s with Oliver. It’s like there trying to make us continue hating her by starting her and oliver again. That storyline failed badly, so move on and try other ways to have laurel likeable. And since they love to rush through storylines(which in my opinion is good) make laurel black canary already. Replace this crying aimless woman with a tough badass woman who I hope would be able to kick Oliver’s ass.

  11. mary April 14, 2014 at 6:00 pm - Reply

    Ughhhh….nobody tell me stay her watching a show where the canon is a couple that I dont care…stay or leave???? The time will tell:(

  12. Desert Dweller April 14, 2014 at 6:18 pm - Reply

    Well if this is truly the direction they are taking the show thank you for the forewarning so that I can bail now. A couple things though.
    1. Did Clark Kent ever cheat on Lois EVER. And then with her sister? And then start it up again?
    2. Someone suggested giving Emily Bett Rickards her own show. Can CW work out a deal to get EBR out of this train wreck?

    I don’t watch the CW for this reason. I KNEW I should NOT have started. Silly me thinking this show might be different. This whole sister story line has been toxic from the get go and nearly lost me in S1. I held on because of EBR (great actress, great character) #goodshowgonebad

  13. Sasha April 14, 2014 at 6:45 pm - Reply

    Laurel brings down every character she’s in a scene with. It seems like TPTB are willing to stick with her instead of cut their loses. I love Arrow, but if I’m forced to endure her character with others, especially Oliver then it’s best to get out now. The only way for O/L to work over O/F is if they destroy Felicity’s character. I will not stick around for that. Thank you for the heads up.

  14. Sasha April 14, 2014 at 6:54 pm - Reply

    And BTW, being forced to like a character is making me like her less. No matter what they do to that character will never make me like her.

  15. Tucker April 14, 2014 at 7:13 pm - Reply

    Not sure why anyone is surprised, and certainly not to the point of all the vitriol. The showrunners were upfront about this from the beginning: Oliver and Laurel are endgame.
    .
    I might have my own issues with it, but there’s plenty of story left to tell.
    .
    And speaking of story, there’s quite a lot more going on in this show than who Oliver Queen is dating. That’s actually one of the least interesting aspects of the series. And certainly not one to toss it all out if it’s not going the way some had hoped.

    • Desert Dweller April 14, 2014 at 8:04 pm - Reply

      Ahh, but see, the first half of the season wasn’t about dating, it was action, story and character development. IT. WAS. BRILLIANT. THE SHOW made it about dating when from Blind Spot to BoP they made it nothing but filler focusing on the Lance family and no longer on Oliver’s story. The Deathstroke story made ZERO advancement and the BoP wasn’t a BoP episode it was “screw the hostages, lets get Laurel to safety”. What kind of Hero story is that?
      -
      Sure I liked the idea of Felicity/Oliver, but THE SHOW built that in the first half as part of the story and they didn’t make them front and center. It was Team Arrow.
      -
      Whenever they bring the Lance sisters front and center the whole show derails and becomes a muckety muck muck mess. I didn’t like the story then, so WHY would I stick around now? Knowing they are going to continue this messed up back and forth drama between two sisters when a VERY talented and capable Emily Bett sits on the sidelines only to be used to garner ratings and renewal status. Because that’s EXACTLY what they are going to do.
      -
      I like to enjoy my show in it’s entirety. Is it going to be perfect 100% of the time? No. But to get 7 episodes in a row of lack luster story and ZERO plot development spells out somethings not right in the sauce. Deathstroke was a good episode and gave me hope, but this article spells it out all to clearly, they have a plan and they are sticking with it everybody else be damned. That smells like HIMYM. It did wonders for them in the end with DVDs gathering dust on the shelves and going down n history as the WORST series finale EVER.
      -
      Come S3 they will probably pull the same malarkey, building up a fantastic Team Arrow with great Felicity scenes and then once again Felicity will be shoved to the sidelines and they will proceed to tank the rest by heading the above article route because they know renewal will be a shoe in.
      -
      It will be a constant push me pull you of promoting Oliver/Felicity only to pull a HIMYM in the end. Well, HIMYM can write a book about how to tank 9 years, and these show runners can write a book about how they let the Lance sisters sink a TV show. Go for it.

      • Tucker April 14, 2014 at 9:49 pm - Reply

        “But to get 7 episodes in a row of lack luster story and ZERO plot development spells out somethings not right in the sauce.”
        .
        I have to explicitly disagree with this assessment.

        • Derek B. Gayle April 14, 2014 at 9:57 pm - Reply

          The seven episodes after “Blind Spot” included “Heir to the Demon,” “The Promise” and “Suicide Squad.” I think there’s a flaw in this theory.

        • Desert Dweller April 14, 2014 at 10:17 pm - Reply

          You may disagree and you have. And as to the flaw in the theory? Incorrect because there is no theory, it is a statement of an opinion. My opinion is that none of those episodes offered advancement in the overall “Deathstroke” plot – they were “filler”. I will give you “the promise” in which Oliver discovers Slade is alive, but that is all that happens.

        • zee April 14, 2014 at 10:21 pm - Reply

          I hated “Blind Spot,” “The Promise,” “Time of Death,” “The Suicide Squad,” and didn’t even bother with “Birds of Prey.” I watched “Deathstroke” and liked that, but I’ll watch until end of Season 2 but I’m going to make it a point to invest in some new shows over the long hiatus so that I can move on from my current Arrow addiction.

          My problem is that as hyped as “The Promise” was, I didn’t learn anything that I didn’t already know. That Slade would find out about the choice between Shado and Sara–uh, I knew that; that they’d free the prisoners–figured that out, too; that Slade would let Oliver know he was in Starling City–that happened at the end of “Time of Death.” The “Suicide Squad” was all over the place, as was “Time of Death.” The former didn’t have enough of the actual Suicide Squad, and the latter completely misunderstood everything I liked about Felicity’s character. “Blind Spot” showed me a Laurel who–after being saved by the hood in the Dollmaker episode–doesn’t even bother thanking him and says “you’re late” when he shows up. Um…she called him because she needed his help…and let’s not forget, she tried to get him arrested not too long ago…so that episode made me hate Laurel even more. I liked “Heir to the Demon” until the end, when Oliver turned back to Ollie by lunging at Sara. I hated “Time of Death” because Oliver was stupid enough to accompany Sara to that dinner and give Laurel that self-righteous speech.

          • Desert Dweller April 14, 2014 at 10:36 pm -

            Good point! Oliver found out at the end of Time of Death, so I can’t even off that one up.

        • Desert Dweller April 14, 2014 at 10:38 pm - Reply

          You may explicitly disagree, but my opinion stands.

    • Trish April 14, 2014 at 8:28 pm - Reply

      Tucker, you make a good point. But let’s touch on it briefly…how the utter failure of Laurel and the shows fixation on her has impacted these “other” stories and why fans like myself would finally say, enough is enough. This is a show about Green Arrow, yet my faves are Felicity, John Diggle, and Moira Queen. Please tell me, out of these three individuals who has had a story in season 2? Yet the show has dedicated 10 episodes to both Lances. Never-mind that Thea & Roy have essentially been nonexistent. The character of Felicity is a fan favorite, that’s a fact, yet this character hasn’t had smidgen of a story or back-story because so many episodes have been dedicated to “fixing” the problem of Laurel Lance with Arrow viewers. And when asked about it, we’re told, there wasn’t enough room in season two to tell it. I’m sorry but if you cut episodes 10-18 of this season, what exactly would you have missed? The answer? Absolutely nothing. And that’s just sad. John Diggle, another fan favorite has had two episodes in two seasons to touch on his background finally! Moira Queen, an icon on a show like this, has oodles of story and yet we can barely get into all that’s going on there. Why? You guessed it, one character needs the attention more, so the audience can take to her. Do you really think they would have brought on Sara had Laurel worked as a viable BC option? Even if comic book & action fans don’t want to admit it, character development is essential…no it’s VITAL to any show of Arrow’s potential. Why do you think they’ve lost so many viewers since the first episode? Even a much anticipated villain storyline like Deathstroke, should have sold itself. It’s action up the wazoo, yet they’ve failed to capture it’s true potential because they continue to saturate the show with an over-abundance of the Lance family drama. And no one is tuning into this show for that family. The show is not called Arrow & The Canaries. Women viewers don’t care about this family and their story-line of how sisters are sharing the same man, especially not women that are watching the show. And I’m sorry but men are not carrying this show. They need to strike a balance between the needs of both the female and male viewers, the comic viewers and the shippers. Regardless of all of this, one thing we all agree on is the fact that Laurel Lance isn’t doing the job that the character was set out to do and the entire canvas of characters is suffering the ill-effect of her further existence. It makes me resent her. And since they have no intention of killing her off, it makes the show unappealing for yet another season. And I say this as a fan that’s only just now returning to the show since 2×8. So this article is long overdue an abundance of vitriol that’s been building for two seasons. P.S. – How much do you want to bet Moira Queen is the next to die? But nope, don’t have to worry about Laurel. She’s endgame.

      • Tucker April 14, 2014 at 10:11 pm - Reply

        “how the utter failure of Laurel and the shows fixation on her has impacted these “other” stories and why fans like myself would finally say, enough is enough.”
        .
        “The character of Felicity is a fan favorite, that’s a fact, yet this character hasn’t had smidgen of a story or back-story because so many episodes have been dedicated to “fixing” the problem of Laurel Lance with Arrow viewers.”
        .
        Laurel is the second lead of the series. By all rights, more of the show should be dedicated to her than to any other character outside of Oliver. Surprisingly, they pushed her to the background for a good chunk of the series to focus on these other characters, including Felicity, who, fan favorite or not, is a minor character. (I love and enjoy her dearly, but this isn’t the Felicity Smoak Story.)
        .
        I think what it comes down to is an expectation of what the show should be and what the show actually is. The show hasn’t changed it spots, and storytellers can’t fall into the trap of always trying to write to expectation. Audience expectation changes on a whim, and plenty of series have gone down the tube when they started to constantly try to both write to every audience member’s desire or tried to anticipate what every audience member’s desire would be.
        .
        Have I always enjoyed what they’ve done with Laurel, no. But the showrunners have done a pretty good job of giving the audience a show to enjoy and be proud of.

        • Trish April 15, 2014 at 12:30 am - Reply

          “Laurel is the second lead of the series. By all rights, more of the show should be dedicated to her than to any other character outside of Oliver. Surprisingly, they pushed her to the background for a good chunk of the series to focus on these other characters, including Felicity, who, fan favorite or not, is a minor character. (I love and enjoy her dearly, but this isn’t the Felicity Smoak Story.)”

          I’m at a complete loss for words on this paragraph. By right the show should be dedicated to her more than any other character outside of Oliver because she’s the female lead? In name only! LOL. It must be nice! Whatever happened to meritocracy? Are the fans to be told to essentially, “shut up and deal with it”, because their “lead” is apathetic among viewers? The show is being contorted and changed to accommodate one character that isn’t even the main character. And if Felicity Smoak is such a minor character, they need to spread the word and remind people of that to include themselves as well as the press who tease her endlessly to her fanbase because she is the draw and they all know it. So no, I’m not expecting the Felicity Smoak show, I’m expecting my favorite characters to be written for. IT’S CALLED BALANCE. (See: Agents of Shield) She happens to be the only character on the show that hasn’t had a drop written for her. That’s downright poor writing by the show.

          And if you really believe Laurel has been pushed aside the entire series for these characters, I’ll just have to say I strongly disagree. Season one was all about her and look how many viewers fled. If they want to stand by their “lead” actress, be my guest. Advertise her, promo her, tease her, rely on her to draw in viewers in the manner in which a lead actress is paid to do. EBR and even CK does it without even trying and picks up the slack for their “lead” while she is unable to deliver with the show’s fans. Let their “lead actress” continue to be the weakest link of the show, while minor a character outshines her without so much as half the writing to back her. That’s a disservice to this show’s fans. P.S. – since Sara is a “minor” character was well, how is it that we know more about her than Felicity as well? *crickets* I’m one of the fans that returned after a horrible first season because I saw its potential. I could see it for its potential…what it could be. Forgive me for imagining its potential. But I will say one thing, you’re right, they have no desire to allow the show to follow a natural progression when it’s clear they have a designated endgame. I hate this for Stephen Amell seeing as he clearly puts his all into this show’s success.

        • Kath April 15, 2014 at 9:07 am - Reply

          Felicity is not the titular female lead (although look at the cast picture at the top of the page, who’s standing next to Oliver? Diggle and Felicity) but she’s the reason I started watching the show regularly. And from what I’ve read, many people think that the Team Arrow of Oliver/Felicity/Diggle is the best part of the show.

          Calling on comic canon is a flawed argument because this show has been more than willing to adapt canon to its needs.

          To get enough audience to keep a show on air, the producers have to appeal to a number of groups. Having Oliver and Laurel as on-again/off-again lovers appeals to those who see Laurel as The Black Canary (although Caity Lotz has shown she makes a better one) and Laurel/Katie Cassidy fans. But those who watch the show for pure entertainment and character development, for more than action sequences and boys with toys, they will start leaving. The weakest part of the show is Oliver’s emotional relationship with both Lance sisters and if the rest of the series reads like the post Christmas episodes (11-17), there’s little in it to interest me.

      • BeFastOrDontBe April 15, 2014 at 8:49 am - Reply

        The show is TWO seasons old. They said they have planned five. Stop worrying about the freaking “end-game” or, I dunno, focus on the end-game of the fact that the show isn’t a romance and it is called Arrow, not Lauriver or Olicity.

        • Craig Byrne April 15, 2014 at 8:53 am - Reply

          I’d like to just ask that PLEASE no one call out other fans or fan groups as delusional, and try not to talk about or bash other fans in this “debate.”

          That’s generally the rule on our forums and I’d like for it to stick here. It’s been a pretty civil discussion so far; no need to call out, mock, or make fun of people.

        • Lauren April 15, 2014 at 9:39 am - Reply

          Yes, the show is not a romance but Oliver’s love life plays a pretty big role. Pretty much all tv shows, no matter the genre, have romance. If viewers shouldn’t be thinking about the endgame couple then why is the producer even bothering hinting at it? The producers talk about the relationships just as much as the viewers talk about them.

    • zee April 14, 2014 at 8:30 pm - Reply

      .
      “And speaking of story, there’s quite a lot more going on in this show than who Oliver Queen is dating. That’s actually one of the least interesting aspects of the series. And certainly not one to toss it all out if it’s not going the way some had hoped.”

      –I agree. Arrow is not about who Oliver Queen is dating. It does, however, hinge on his character. If he goes back to Laurel after pursuing a sexual relationship with her sister not once, but twice, it makes him an unlikeable character for me. I’m not going to want to follow his hero’s journey. I’m a girl, and I have a sister, so to me, that whole plot line is DISGUSTING. It isn’t just that I don’t like it, it’s that I find it morally reprehensible. And since this show hinges on me liking Oliver’s journey as a hero, it IS a problem when I don’t like him as a character.

      This does smack of HIMYM to me too. I would have hoped show runners everywhere learned from that mess, but unless there is another interview that says Oliver and Laurel are NOT endgame, I won’t be tuning in for Season 3. I’m using the long break to get invested in some other shows. I’ll watch the end of Season 2 because I’m currently obsessed with Arrow, but knowing what I do now that AK still thinks this love story is like Lois and Clark, I’m not willing to invest any more time into Oliver Queen’s journey. It’s sad because I really, really love Arrow–Lance sisters love story aside–but I can’t go through HIMYM again. I know it’s just a TV show, but holy crap, well-written characters are addicting, and heartbreaking when all that character development gets flushed down the toilet.

      • Lauren April 14, 2014 at 10:12 pm - Reply

        “I agree. Arrow is not about who Oliver Queen is dating. It does, however, hinge on his character. If he goes back to Laurel after pursuing a sexual relationship with her sister not once, but twice, it makes him an unlikeable character for me. I’m not going to want to follow his hero’s journey. I’m a girl, and I have a sister, so to me, that whole plot line is DISGUSTING. It isn’t just that I don’t like it, it’s that I find it morally reprehensible. And since this show hinges on me liking Oliver’s journey as a hero, it IS a problem when I don’t like him as a character.”

        This! If the writers insist on having Oliver in a relationship (even just a sexual one, whatever), why continuously have his character growth regress by making him go back and forth between the two sisters? It makes Oliver the hero revert to Ollie the immature womanizer. I thought the island was supposed to change him but he became instantly less likeable when he got together with Sara AGAIN. I want a spin-off show with Felicity, Diggle, Detective Lance, and Thea fighting crime. Let Oliver have his mess and maybe a future plotline could be that he enters into a polygamist marriage with the Lance sisters. I am a girl and have a sister as well and this whole situation makes me want to slap Oliver.

      • BeFastOrDontBe April 15, 2014 at 10:47 am - Reply

        “Unless there is an interview that says Oliver and Laurel are not end-game.” Where have you seen one that says they are end-game?

        Kreisberg: “He has women in his life. He has Laurel, he has Felicity… Helena’s doing a 10-to-20 stretch… so I think that Laurel will always be one of the closest people to him, whether that’s romantic or not.”

        That shows me that TPTB don’t even know who romantic end-game is. Stop freaking the hell out about something that isn’t actually going to be firmly and completely unchangeable until the very last episode of the series when Oliver rides off into the sunset with someone or no one at all.

    • Kath April 14, 2014 at 8:40 pm - Reply

      Once thing that’s been to the credit of the Arrow producers, they’ve been willing to change the game plan when something better showed up. Creating Diggle, making Felicity a regular when she caught the attention of the audience, killing Tommy rather than Malcolm, all these are examples of when they moved away from canon and found something better.

      Oliver and Laurel may have been endgame in the original plan, but if so, they should have screen-tested together. Part of the audience’s attachment to Felicity was because Oliver was much more interesting in scenes with her than he was in scenes with Laurel, and it’s hard to think of Katie Cassidy as the Black Canary having seen Caity Lotz in the role. (Not to mention, the Oliver/Laurel ship was sunk as soon as the audience found out he had slept with her sister.)

      There may be more story left to tell with Oliver and Laurel but the fact is that the show comes to a screeching halt every time a scene is about them. Everyone connected with the show works so hard, from writers to actors to stunt people, it would be a shame to tank the show because of the dead weight of Lauriver.

  16. EP April 14, 2014 at 7:40 pm - Reply

    Soooo done with arrow if the end game is Laurel….they just do not have any chemistry at all!!!! Sorry, I am sure she is a nice person but she does a terrible Laurel.

  17. Desert Dweller April 14, 2014 at 8:16 pm - Reply

    Hell, at this point I say take Felicity out of the game altogether. I’m all for KILLING FELICITY and getting EBR some material and a show of her own where she will be respected for the true talent she is, than for fodder to garner ratings and renewal.
    -
    Let Laurel be the leading lady and have Oliver continue playing sister ping pong all he wants. Get season 4 that way, all on their own.

  18. Writersblock April 14, 2014 at 9:22 pm - Reply

    AK is clueless about a few things regarding this particular show:

    1) don’t ever tell fans that you’re giving them what ‘they need’ instead of what they want. That’s far too much generalizing, for starters. Not all of the fans want or need the same things. So, don’t be a condescending tool, Andrew. Just make the best show you can

    2) Comic canon – I say BULLSHIT. Call it what it really is: Selective Comic Canon that caters to a few fans, who are hanging onto Laurel merely because her name includes ‘Dinah.’

    3) Sister swapping is disgusting. Why either Lance sister would choose to be involved with Oliver is beyond me

    4) Why cast Caity Lotz as Sara/BC, give her tons of stuff to do on the island and present day Starling City merely to have her be Oliver’s Season 2 fling? What the hell?

    5) Oliver and Laurel aren’t close. They lie to each other. They don’t trust each other, not really. And they care about each other but they aren’t honest or respectful to each other. That’s not true love

    6) Dismantling the show to prop up a weak character (no matter who her comic counterpart is) and even weaker relationship is stupid. I can’t tell if AK and MG are truly that delusional or if they’re getting pressure from DC and/or the CW

    I feel very bad for Stephen Amell. He seems like a very decent guy who works extremely hard to put together a quality show. He spends a lot of time publicizing the show, interacting enthusiastically with fans and giving plenty of shout outs to his fellow cast & crew members. I wonder if he wishes that the EPs would just shut the eff up sometimes.

    All the enthusiasm I had for the rest of the season and for season 3 is gone. Why on earth would I watch a show that I suspect will annoy me and make me feel like I’ve wasted 50+ hours of my life on?

    • Derek B. Gayle April 14, 2014 at 9:34 pm - Reply

      “Don’t give people what they want, give them what they need.” – Joss Whedon

      Yeah, I guess that guy was a big hack, too.

    • Marko April 14, 2014 at 9:35 pm - Reply

      honestly i totally 100% agree with ‘Writersblock’ !!! as what they said is totally true

    • BeFastOrDontBe April 15, 2014 at 9:11 am - Reply

      3) Sister swapping is disgusting. Why either Lance sister would choose to be involved with Oliver is beyond me.

      I don’t know about you but it’s no more ‘disgusting’ than the fact that little Andrew Diggle Jr almost ended up calling Digs “Uncle-Daddy”. Also, it’s a pretty common TV trope, family relationship swapping.

      4) Why cast Caity Lotz as Sara/BC, give her tons of stuff to do on the island and present day Starling City merely to have her be Oliver’s Season 2 fling? What the hell?

      Well, my guess is because, DLL in the comics wasn’t the first BC either so they needed someone to be the first BC so Laurel can be the second. Also, AK pretty much explained what the point of the fling was in the article.

      5) Oliver and Laurel aren’t close. They lie to each other. They don’t trust each other, not really. And they care about each other but they aren’t honest or respectful to each other. That’s not true love —

      Oliver lies to everyone. Do you think he’s told Diggle & Felicity everything that has happened on the island? He blatantly lied to them about Sara dying just like he did to Laurel. The basis of his relationships with both of them started with him lying to them. If he hadn’t needed to bring them into the fold to use them (which is exactly what he’s doing), he’d still be lying to them. Laurel… when exactly has she ever lied to Oliver about anything?

      6) Dismantling the show to prop up a weak character (no matter who her comic counterpart is) and even weaker relationship is stupid. I can’t tell if AK and MG are truly that delusional or if they’re getting pressure from DC and/or the CW

      How does who Oliver is involved with “dismantle” the show? This isn’t a romance. It’s an action-drama-super hero show. Also, Oliver is the same selfish guy he has always been. It doesn’t matter who he’s dating or if he’s not dating anyone.

  19. Derek B. Gayle April 14, 2014 at 9:30 pm - Reply

    I think we all know that the TRUE ‘ship of Arrow is the tragic love story between Oliver Queen and Slade Wilson.

    But seriously, if “the two leads will probably hook up again eventually” is the only excuse you can give to jump ship, then that kinda solidifies that this is a pretty damn good show otherwise.

    Also…just…what in the ever living hell is wrong with the Arrow fandom right now? Good lord.

    • zee April 14, 2014 at 9:59 pm - Reply

      The problem is that it affects Oliver’s character negatively. I think that character is the SINGLE most important reason people tune in. The action, romance, comedy, plot–none of that matters if you can’t invest in a character. The Lance sister drama did a LOT of damage to Oliver as a character, so if they plan to go back down that route with Laurel, basically what I’m taking from that is that they are planning to take Oliver’s character development down a path I don’t want to see. No amount of writing will convince me that Laurel is the love of his life, because if she is, then what an ass he is to have run off with her sister when she suggested they move in together, and then hook up with her sister AND go to a family dinner at HER apartment a week after her supposed dead sister returns from the grave. Who cares if he’s willing to risk his life for complete strangers if he treats the woman he’s supposed to love that way? I can’t root for a hero who does that.

      Furthermore, I can’t invest in Laurel because why would she put herself through that and give Oliver another chance? Doesn’t she have ANY self-respect? Doesn’t she think she deserves better? So there’s two characters I now don’t like.

      Now, if he moved past that mistake, I’m willing to watch that. I’m willing to see him become a man who wouldn’t swap sisters; who puts others before himself; who is selfless and morally upright in EVERY aspect of his life–as Oliver Queen AND the Arrow. He doesn’t have to be perfect. He can stumble and make mistakes, but writing a story that puts him back together with Laurel makes him STUPID, and that’s what I won’t tune in for.

      It isn’t about whether two leads will hook up again, it’s whether a plot line will destroy character development. This one will, in my opinion. And that is HUGE reason to jump ship.

      You want to know what’s “wrong” with the Arrow fandom? We love the characters, that’s what’s “wrong.” We love character development and plot lines that make sense. We love smart television and tight writing and story that propels characters forward. Laurel and Oliver are a step backwards–a huge one–and for this viewer, it IS a deal breaker.

      • Derek B. Gayle April 14, 2014 at 10:12 pm - Reply

        This is all based on the assumption that it’s going to fail. You wrote a whole paragraph about how you’d be willing to watch if he’s able to get past the mistake. None of the above remarks in the (really vague) interview point to the fact that he won’t. It also doesn’t treat this like THE primary storyline of the show, which it very much isn’t and never has been. Not by a long shot.

        The show started with Oliver as a pretty unlikeable asshole specifically so it could build him back up into a better human being. Similarly, there’s no reason to not believe much of what’s happened in season 2 is, in one way or another, going to be used as a backdrop for the journey for both Oliver and Laurel to be better people, and better for each other. Who knows.

        That’s the thing–it’s great to want engaging storylines and character development, but…none of this stuff has even happened yet. I don’t give a rat’s ass who Oliver ends up with as long as it plays out well, but it’s got to actually play out first before anyone can pass judgement. All the stuff mentioned in this interview might not even come to pass for another two years, all Kreisberg is saying is to not rule anything out. So yeah, this is, like, the definition of overreaction.

        • zee April 14, 2014 at 10:34 pm - Reply

          Um. I never said it was going to fail. I said it wasn’t something I was willing to invest in. AK is comparing Laurel and Oliver to Lois and Clark who ARE an endgame couple. I don’t think I am the only one reading into this article as “Oliver-Laurel are still going to play out in the future.” I didn’t say their ratings would drop or that the show would tank. I said TO ME (that’s what IN MY OPINION means), the plot would destroy character development and it’s a legitimate reason to jump ship. I will watch Oliver stumble and fail, but not when it comes to swapping sisters.

          If it doesn’t happen, great. But I’m not willing to invest because this article makes it clear that they don’t think that love story is dead in the water and that speaks to a difference in my value system and theirs.

        • BeFastOrDontBe April 15, 2014 at 9:17 am - Reply

          Thank you, Derek. And while I know we don’t like the comics canon argument, Oliver in the comics is pretty rotten at times. I mean, he punched Roy Harper and kicked him out for having a heroin addiction. While I expect Arrow’s OQ to be a little less of a jerk, I think they have been pretty faithful in sticking with a lot of his bad traits and also using them as lessons for Oliver to learn.

        • Kath April 15, 2014 at 10:46 am - Reply

          “The show started with Oliver as a pretty unlikeable asshole specifically so it could build him back up into a better human being.”

          I agree. Unlikeable enough that I watched and didn’t care enough to keep watching. Diggle makes Oliver more likable, so do Felicity and Thea. Sara fighting with him makes him more likable, although when it’s about their relationship (the Oliver/Sara/Laurel B story was the worst thing about Suicide Squad). Every time he interacts with Laurel makes Oliver unlikable.

          I thought the first part of season 2 was great and I really looked forward to the show every week. Blast Radius was okay but every episode after that until Deathstroke felt more like a chore to watch, especially Bird of Prey which I had really been looking forward to.

          Every emotional tie to either Lance sister makes Oliver less likable. Keep him celibate, I don’t care, just don’t drag the show down with this stuff.

      • wonderwall April 14, 2014 at 10:15 pm - Reply

        Dayum @Zee, you’re on a roll. I wish you were the writer’s and the EP’s conscience. Because I really don’t understand why they’re trying to shove the Lance’s family drama down our throats when we’re clearly more interested in Team Arrow and the villains they face.

        God I hope this isn’t HIMYM all over again. I PRAY to god MG and AK learn a lesson from the HIMYM finale and see that shows are fluid and aren’t meant to have a set ending. You can’t just force a story/relationship that doesn’t fit the show at the time. And IMO Oliver and Laurel will never make sense and it’s only because of the writer’s doing. Not only will it be a betrayal to Tommy and Sara, it would also be a betrayal to themselves and their character and the people who are so completely invested in this show.

        I hope AK and MG see these comments and get a sense of the mistake they might make in the future regarding these two and quickly rectify it.

      • Tucker April 14, 2014 at 10:19 pm - Reply

        I think you hit on the crux of the series. This show is about Oliver the human being. Human beings are messy, even our heroes. They make choices from every end of the spectrum, including the bad ones.
        .
        This is a show that hasn’t been afraid to show Oliver making bad choices. More important, it’s a show that hasn’t been afraid to show that sometimes choices aren’t good or bad. Sometimes you go down certain paths and they take you to places that weren’t anticipated or planned. Now’s when we can bust out all of the clichés and idioms about life being grey, blah blah blah. But this is a show that definitely lives in the greys.

  20. Marko April 14, 2014 at 9:32 pm - Reply

    these comments are soo funny and made my day lol!!! i have never seen and read soo many hate comments about Laurel and Laurel and Oliver as a couple on one website/on a single webpage story on GreenArrowTV. But this is all true and i 100% couldn’t agree more with everyone else. But trust me! Katie Cassidy (the actress for Laurel) is actually a good, nice and kind actress and person in real lfe, she just happens to be bad at being Laurel on Arrow! so can everyone who hates Laurel just hate Laurel and not the actress herself… (im not saying anyone has hated Katie Cassidy, im just saying this for future references to people hating on Katie Cassidy). But i actually do agree that most Arrow viewers tune out on all Laurel scenes and that Laurel and Oliver/just Laurel is bringing down the viewers enjoyment and appreciation on Arrow, but everyone apparently (and including me) really likes Sara Lance and hopes that she doesn’t die on Arrow…

  21. Kelly April 14, 2014 at 9:33 pm - Reply

    If I’m not mistaken, haven’t Oliver and Laurel spent more time apart than together in the comic canon? I don’t know if you can call a couple iconic when they get divorced and have kids with other people…

    I respect and appreciate that the EPs have a five-year plan but after the HIMYM finale, I don’t know if I trust EPs to be flexible if the story, characters, and relationships evolve in an unexpected way. By insisting on Laurel being Oliver’s endgame they are letting the plot dictate the characters instead of allowing the characters to drive the plot. Felicity wasn’t originally planned to be an integral character but I can’t imagine the show without her. And Sara has turned out to be a far more likeable character than I suspect she was intended to be.

    I’m not a shipper but I can’t really buy Oliver and Laurel together because he cheated on her. The feminist in me is appalled at the number of tv shows (especially ones whose target audience is young girls) that feature boys/men cheating on their girlfriend/wife and are quickly forgiven with no consequences. With some of the Arrow staff headed over to The Flash, maybe they should take the opportunity to hire some female producers and writers.

    • Tucker April 14, 2014 at 10:43 pm - Reply

      The show actually has a number of female writers and directors, including Beth Schwartz, who has written 5 episodes this season; Wendy Mericle, who has written 4 episodes; and Keto Shimizu, who has written 4 as well. Each also tends to produce on the episodes they write, particularly Shimizu. They’ve got a good number of female producers also.
      .
      I’ve heard this concern before, and it’s an unfounded one.
      .
      “I respect and appreciate that the EPs have a five-year plan but after the HIMYM finale, I don’t know if I trust EPs to be flexible if the story, characters, and relationships evolve in an unexpected way. By insisting on Laurel being Oliver’s endgame they are letting the plot dictate the characters instead of allowing the characters to drive the plot. Felicity wasn’t originally planned to be an integral character but I can’t imagine the show without her.”
      .
      And here’s the point that Kreisberg was trying to make with his comparison to Lois & Clark. We know they end up together, but it’s the journey of how they get there that can take a number of twists and turns. I think the fact that they’ve allowed Oliver to move on — and with the idea that he’s moved on with Laurel’s sister by all means seeming to put an end to the concept of them being together for both characters at this point in their story — is indicative that they don’t want this to just be a simple love story.
      .
      “And Sara has turned out to be a far more likeable character than I suspect she was intended to be.”
      .
      Agreed. And I’m on record for hating the idea of bringing Sara back at the beginning of the season.

      • Kelly April 15, 2014 at 3:30 pm - Reply

        I want to want Oliver and Laurel to be together but I haven’t been convinced that Arrow’s versions of them are a good fit for one another. Saying, “We know they end up together,” feels very inorganic to me.

        I would be interested in hearing an argument for the two of them based on reasoning other than referencing comic book canon. They don’t exactly have a happily-ever-after in canon, so I’m not sure that argument is very convincing to begin with. (For the record, I’m not convinced at this point that Felicity and Oliver are a good fit for one another, either.)

    • BeFastOrDontBe April 15, 2014 at 9:24 am - Reply

      Oh, the old divorce argument against Lauriver. Do you know why they got divorced? I bet you’d be surprised to learn it had nothing to do with their relationship with one another and everything to do with Oliver’s horrible actions while he was possessed and murdering people in cold blood and trying to kill her and his family and friends?

  22. Lauren April 14, 2014 at 10:36 pm - Reply

    I find it interesting that the two main people defending this mess of a pairing in the comments are men. It seems that cheating on a serious girlfriend with her sister and then going back and forth sleeping with both sisters doesn’t anger the guys as much as us ladies. I couldn’t care less about who is named Dinah and comic canon because a love triangle involving two sisters is screwed up. It goes beyond “character flaws” when a man is continuously going back and forth sleeping with two sisters. Laurel was first season and it did not resonate with most viewers. Sara is second season and the writers should either keep Sara or have neither. Stop this switching out one Lance sister for the other.

    • Tucker April 14, 2014 at 10:51 pm - Reply

      In all honesty, what way is Oliver going back and forth between the two sisters? He cheated on Laurel with Sara six years ago, admittedly making a mistake. From what we’ve seen of the island, Oliver wasn’t with Sara during that time. He eventually got back together with Laurel last year but they split. He’s now with Sara, someone with whom he has a pretty strong connection of shared experiences. He’s not hopping between beds here.
      .
      And no one seems to want to point out Laurel’s own dalliances between Tommy and Oliver. Sure, they weren’t blood brothers, but they had a relationship as close as some.
      .
      These are people. And these are the silly kinds of things people do. It’s not condoning it. It’s not even liking it, per se. It’s accepting that these are the situations that these people have put themselves in.
      .
      And thinking so has nothing to do with being male or female.

      • Lauren April 14, 2014 at 11:43 pm - Reply

        A timeline:

        -He was in a serious, about to move in together relationship with Laurel but he cheats with Sara. Admittedly, yes, he made a mistake. But a big one. Six years wouldn’t heal this betrayal, especially when you think your sister is dead the whole time.

        -Keeps a picture of Laurel with him on the island and when he gets a chance to use a phone, she is who he calls. Many viewers are under the impression she is supposed to be his epic “true love.”

        -Gets off the island and tries his hardest to make up with Laurel. Never tells her family that Sara survived the sinking, by the way.

        -Sleeps with Laurel during season one. I forget if it was only once or more.

        -Blames himself the whole time for what happened to Sara and the Lance family.

        -Sara reappears in season two. Oliver doesn’t tell Laurel, still supposedly his “true love” or her family.

        -Sara reappears later in the season. Random sex occurs. Wait, doesn’t he still blame himself for everything that happened to the Lance family? Isn’t Laurel’s life basically in shambles? Having sex with Sara again is very helpful, Oliver. Good job!

        -Crashes Lance family dinner and basically tells Laurel, his season one love, that he is completely done with her and she should continue being an alcoholic.

        -Sara becomes his important, epic, season two love. Laurel is sidelined the whole season and actually apologizes to Sara, who is the one who should be begging Laurel for forgiveness.

        -I’m guessing we are going to see some Oliver/Sara relationship on the island eventually. The way they hooked up this season makes me think they must have been messing around on the island as well.

        So…Oliver goes from Laurel pre-island to Sara pre-island to Laurel in season one to Sara in season two. That is switching back and forth between sisters. And based on this interview, Laurel might have another go with Oliver in season three.

        To Laurel and Tommy, Oliver was dead. They first got together under the assumption that he was dead. Laurel originally did not cheat on Oliver with Tommy. Yes, she was messy and went back and forth between them in season one. I’m not excusing that at all. There is a major difference between Laurel, who thought her boyfriend was dead and started a new relationship and Oliver, who cheats with Sara, tries to get back with Laurel, and then gets back with Sara as soon as she returns home.

        I feel like the writers spent the whole first season trying to convince us Laurel and Oliver were true love. I don’t think many people bought it. Season two started kind of hinting that Oliver and Felicity might become a thing (which I think the majority of fans want) and then came the rest of the season. Now we are expected to believe Oliver has a deep, meaningful connection with Sara. While his season one true love is sidelined the whole of season two. It’s just ridiculous. Honestly I wish they would just cut romance from the show and have everyone kicking ass and saving the city instead. Sorry for the novel but I am way too invested in this silly show.

        • Lauren April 15, 2014 at 12:02 am - Reply

          “I feel like the writers spent the whole first season trying to convince us Laurel and Oliver were true love. I don’t think many people bought it. Season two started kind of hinting that Oliver and Felicity might become a thing (which I think the majority of fans want) and then came the rest of the season. Now we are expected to believe Oliver has a deep, meaningful connection with Sara. While his season one true love is sidelined the whole of season two. It’s just ridiculous.”

          I just wanted to clarify that the only reason I am so against this whole situation and the pushing of one pairing first season and then a different pairing the next season is the fact that it’s sisters. While cheating is bad, I wouldn’t be quite as disgusted if Oliver had cheated on Laurel with a mutual friend or with an employee of QC or something. This all really irks me because they’re sisters. I’m 23 and my sister is 26, and I’m just imagining a situation like this would be devastating and I would never want to even look at the guy again let alone hook up with him. Sisters before guys, always! Yes, even if they look like Stephen Amell lol.

          • zee April 15, 2014 at 7:28 am -

            The funny thing is it isn’t about shipping for me. Give me Oliver alone, just don’t ruin both their characters by putting him back with Laurel in a relationship.

            Yes, it’s a television show, but the love story SHOULD be the ONE part of it that IS believable. To anyone who says Oliver and Laurel belong together, imagine if your sister or a very close female friend went through what Laurel went through with him. Would you really be able to say, “well, clearly he is crazy about you. I mean, look at all the things he’s done to show you you’re the one?”

            This isn’t about Laurel hate. This is about respecting Laurel as a character enough to say, “please girl, you deserve better.” Make her the Black Canary if they want. I can suspend disbelief for that. I can’t suspend disbelief for her and Oliver’s toxic love story.

        • BeFastOrDontBe April 15, 2014 at 9:26 am - Reply

          You point out tons of supposedly anti-Lauriver arguments that are really anti-Oliver arguments.

          • Lauren April 15, 2014 at 9:48 am -

            Because they ARE anti-Oliver, not anti-Laurel. I have not been anti-Laurel in anything I’ve posted in these comments. If it came across that way it was completely unintentional. My whole argument is that Oliver is pretty much disgusting for going back and forth between two sisters. As a feminist, I do find it very cringe-worthy that the writing for the women has both the sisters keep hooking up with him. But Oliver’s the main one at fault here for originally cheating on Laurel and then flip flopping between them.

    • zee April 14, 2014 at 11:00 pm - Reply

      Funny, I thought EXACTLY the same thing. It struck me too that it doesn’t bother males quite as much as females.

      Tommy and Laurel started their relationship after they thought Oliver had died. Oliver invited her sister to go with him on a boat after Laurel suggested they move in together. Sara returns and it isn’t that she and Oliver started a relationship, it’s that Oliver shows up at HER apartment during the first family dinner the Lances have had. And you’re right–if he decides to be with Sara, that’s one thing. But if he goes back to Laurel, that IS the definition of bed hopping.

      • zee April 14, 2014 at 11:06 pm - Reply

        I meant: It’s one thing to resume a relationship with Sara years later, after he and Laurel break up (again). That’s still forgivable. But to go back to Laurel afterwards–that’s just gross. So, basically, he goes from cheating on Laurel with Sara, to resuming a relationship with Laurel (effectively screwing over his best friend), to resuming a relationship with Sara because it didn’t work out with Laurel. Okay…that’s gross…but hey, if I try really hard, I can MAYBE rationalize bits and pieces and move past that. But then try to sell me him returning to Laurel down the road and her taking him back as the show’s EPIC, ENDGAME romance? I don’t think so.

      • Tucker April 14, 2014 at 11:12 pm - Reply

        And if something should happen to Sara, or if Oliver and Sara just decide it doesn’t work, and Oliver doesn’t hook up with Laurel until, say, Season 5 or 6 after they’ve gone off and done other things, is that still bed hopping?
        .
        Point of clarification, Tommy and Laurel slept together when they thought Oliver was dead. They didn’t actually start dating until he returned. And she was in bed with Oliver within a day or two of her and Tommy splitting.
        .
        And didn’t Oliver believe Sara was dead after the island experience before she returned to Starling City this year? It’s funny to me how both situations are actually quite similar and yet Oliver is looked upon as the beast here.

        • zee April 14, 2014 at 11:23 pm - Reply

          I would say it’s still gross. If my husband ever slept with my sister, no amount of time passing would ever hit the point of “yeah, I’m okay with it now.” But maybe that’s just me. It’s kind of a given for me not to sleep with a guy who’s been with my sister.

          And, by the way, I don’t think Sara’s much better in this scenario. I can’t stand her and Oliver together either. I hated that Laurel apologized to Sara because Sara was in the wrong. The ENTIRE Lance sister love triangle is the worst part of the show for me.

          • Kendra April 15, 2014 at 6:18 am -

            I couldn’t agree with you more Zee. To be cheated on is horrible. To be cheated on with your best friend is unforgivable. To be cheated on with your sister is “no words to describe”. It’s just a girl code, and so to see the way this Lance sister crap is being portrayed and then played again, reminds me that even though their are some women writers for this show, I’m sorry, but it’s obvious that the men are still pulling the strings because a woman would know that you Just don’t go there.

    • Derek B. Gayle April 15, 2014 at 4:19 pm - Reply

      I don’t think many of us who come off as “defending the pairing” are really doing that — I guess that becomes the default stance when you aren’t “against” it, per se, but it’s not really the case. What we’re defending is the possibility that the story here is how the characters can be redeemed to a point where it can seem logical for them to be together. I don’t condone any of what’s happened between them, just as much as I don’t condone the 30-odd people Oliver has murdered since the Pilot.

      But that’s what the show has built itself on from day one: a lot of these people, Oliver especially, have done stupid, horrible things in their lives. The main crux of the show since then has been how to build yourself back up and dig yourself out of that hole. How to rediscover your humanity. Having Oliver cheat on his girlfriend with her sister in the first episode was completely on purpose: we saw the disgusting person he was to understand why it’s imperative for him to be a better person down the line to become Green Arrow.

      There are a lot of problems with Laurel as a character, and I didn’t like much of what went on in that Oliver/Laurel/Tommy triangle in season 1—the conversations of her like an object one or the other had to possess were really, REALLY uncomfortable, even if unintentional—but season 2 makes it pretty clear that the show is playing the long game with them. They’ve broken down the friendship and exposed how toxic Oliver’s view of her as some angel is (his revelation in “Blind Spot” and their big blowout in “Time of Death,” specifically.) And frankly, Oliver and Sara’s relationship, even though it hasn’t been steeped in the melodrama, hasn’t been butterflies and rainbows either. Oliver makes a really shitty boyfriend, actually, and it’s important to recognize that he simply isn’t ready for a healthy relationship because of all his issues. My assumption is that what the show is trying to do is get Oliver and Laurel to both separately build themselves back up as better people, and eventually those trajectories would cross, and they’d both be ready for each other at the same time. That’d be a hard trajectory to track, but with enough foresight and flexibility, it would be an interesting and unorthodox way to play out a love story.

      For all that to work, I assume it would be over a long period of time. Which, like I’ve pointed out in other comments, these remarks are very vague, and I don’t get the sense that he’s saying Laurel and Oliver are hooking up ASAP. I certainly hope that’s not the case, at least. They’d make a terrible couple now, yeah, but they also kind of make pretty bad couples with everyone in the show right now. They’ve got to get their shit together first. That’s what I’m looking forward to seeing.

  23. Tucker April 14, 2014 at 11:01 pm - Reply

    By the by, whether we agree or disagree, we certainly appreciate the comments and discussion from everyone. In all sincerity, thank you for sharing your thoughts. Please continue to do so.

    • wonderwall April 14, 2014 at 11:52 pm - Reply

      I love how civil the conversation is on here! I mean no name calling no putting other people down… Just a civil, adult discussion about a great show! Kudos to everyone on here for that!

    • Derek B. Gayle April 15, 2014 at 8:10 am - Reply

      I’m pleased that, bonkers as some of the reactions are, people’s reasoning lies more in Laurel’s relationship with the show and with the people, or her development as a character. That’s much better than a lot of fans of say, Breaking bad or Walking Dead, where most of the hatred stems from some latent misogynist attitudes more than anything. I still think it’s weird how much people hate Laurel with a fiery passion, but I think it speaks a lot to the kind of people Arrow fans are, that people tend to have more thorough and analytical arguments rather than just “She’s a bitch!”

      • BeFastOrDontBe April 15, 2014 at 10:30 am - Reply

        Misogyny doesn’t have to make itself known by the “b” word. It’s pretty prevalent even in this forum by taking the form of “well, she’s dumb if she goes back to Oliver,” without ever placing the onus on Oliver to ever become a better person. Or ever admitting that, as he is currently, Oliver’s bad for everyone, not just Laurel or Sara.

  24. Maria April 15, 2014 at 1:02 am - Reply

    I am a bit amused by some posters here who seem so convinced that they represent the majority of the “Arrow” viewers/fans. I mean, how can they possibly know how millions of viewers worldwide feel about Laurel and the Laurel/Oliver romance? And if it’s true that nobody or very few viewers like Laurel or that the majority of the fans think she’s a mess of a character, how do you explain that Laurel is currently the character most likely to survive according to the folks at the high traffic “Arrow” imdb board?

    Oliver Queen 9
    Laurel Lance 21
    John Diggle 12
    Thea Queen 10
    Quentin Lance 12
    Moira Queen 10
    Felicity Smoak 13 +
    Roy Harper 4 –
    Slade Wilson 10

    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2193021/board/thread/228061347?d=latest&p=4#latest

    Judging by this thread, Laurel Lance is currently more popular than “fan favourite” Felicity Smoak, because she is the character that most posters want to survive and play an important role in season three. Of course, this is a small sample of fans, but so are the posters here and their buddies.

    The fact that there are more negative than positive posts here doesn’t prove anything either The only thing that it might prove is that many Laurel fans are so tired of being ridiculed and shouted down on comment sections like these that they just refrain from posting most of the time. And even IF Laurel is not a fan popular character I don’t see the reason to get rid or her or diminish her role…Lois Lane was not a popular character in the SV fandom (just read some Ksite threads!) when she joined “Smallville”, but that didn’t stop the writers from developing her character and giving her storylines.

    In general, I think it would be more honest and fruitful not to invoke some kind of majority opinion in order to prop your opinions.There are plenty of fans out there who might feel differently about Laurel and Lauriver, but who don’t have much time/inclination to get into arguments over characters and ships on various web sites.

    Furthermore, I have noticed a trend in the fandom where folks actually have started to stand up for and like Laurel, BECAUSE of all the sometimes unfair trashing from the “Arrow” fandom. There is also a current fatigue with the fandom idolization of Felicity, who may be charming but who is not that well written from a dramaturgical POV (no backstory, no relationships outside the Arrowcave).

    I personally know quite a few “Arrow” fans who enjoy both Laurel and the Laurel/Oliver relationship, although they are the first to admit that they could have been better written. Katie Cassidy has 210.000 followers on twitter, and although not all of them may love Laurel, it shows that both the actress and the character she portrays has her fans, despite what some folks here claim.

    As for the romantic relationships which are often put forth as much better alternatives, like the Sara/Oliver or Felicity/Oliver relationship, they have their fandom detractors as well. Olicity may have a large and vocal fan base, but I have read enough comments on various forums to know that there are fans who shudder at the thought of a serious relationship between Oliver and Felicity, because they don’t see the chemistry or the compability. So, what in some people’s eyes look like a perfect romance is nothing more than forced fanservice to other fans. And there is absolutely no guarantee that an Olicity hook up will make the show better or attract thousands of new viewers, as some folks who populate online comment sections like to claim. Casual viewers don’t tune in to watch a few minutes of Olicity interaction-they are more concerned about the general quality of the storytelling and the character portrayal. Besides, Felicity has had so little character development that they could use her screen time for other things than shipper pandering.

    I know that few posters in this comment section agree with me. However, my intention was mostly to bring in another POV. As for the TPTB, I doubt that they give that much weight exactly to what people write here or elsewhere. They are content as long as people are talking, because it’s the general “buzz” that they are interested in.

    • wonderwall April 15, 2014 at 7:57 am - Reply

      It would be kind of foolish as well to think that IMDB shows that the majority of the Arrow fandom don’t mind Laurel or Laurel/Oliver either? Based on your logic I mean. I guess there’s no real way of being 100% certain.
      I think that the reason why the ratings have been lower this season is not because of ‘Olicity’ or ‘more team arrow’ as you’ve stated. I think it’s because of poor story telling. There were so many filler episodes and breaks that people probably just lost interest… Not to mention the Lance family drama. Sorry, but Olicity and Team Arrow were more prominent in season 1 and early season 2 than they were in the last 7-8 episodes.
      Not everyone on this board are Olicity fans. You can’t just blame them for all the hate. Sure they’re passionate. But also, you have to admit that sometimes they have some good points! I don’t think I would be able to (not now, not 5 years from now) be able to have a romantic relationship with my fiance if he had a romantic relationship with my sister, then 5 years later, pursued me, then went back to having a relationship with my sister again. That’s just not right. Not by any means.
      I just hope that the writers and EPs learn their lesson from HIMYM and how sometimes It’s not good to have a 5 year plan and a set ending because things change. Alliances change, peoples interests change. Take a look at how popular EBR was in season 1? Even Stephen Amell says that Arrow wouldn’t have been the same without her.
      Anyways back to my original point. Unless you poll the entire fandom, we won’t really know who loves whom more. But the fact that there are polls where hundreds of people show that Oliver/Laurel aren’t as popular as Oliver/Sara and even Oliver/Felicity says something more than 20 something people saying they love Laurel and Laurel/Oliver on an IMDB board. There are also articles about the most annoying characters on TV and guess who’s on it? Laurel. Maybe this is why people probably think that the majority of the fandom are annoyed/indifferent/hate/don’t like Laurel…

    • Lauren April 15, 2014 at 10:12 am - Reply

      Personally, I don’t dislike Laurel as a character. Admittedly she’s not my favorite, but the poor writing of the character is to blame. And I have nothing against Katie Cassidy either. Many people don’t want Laurel/Oliver to happen again not because of Laurel herself but because of the Laurel/Oliver/Sara debacle. I would be perfectly content with Laurel becoming Black Canary (although I don’t want Sara to have to die for it to happen) and fighting crime with the gang. What pisses off me is the sister love triangle. All three characters instantly become less likable when this mess is happening.

  25. itsarrowbaby April 15, 2014 at 2:01 am - Reply

    Remember when Slade was like, ‘If you think you can sleep with your girlfriend’s sister, and still make it right, you’re dumber than I thought’?

    This is how I feel when the writer’s still try to make Laurel / Oliver a ‘thing’. He slept with her sister. Alot. You can’t make that right no matter how much you try to retcon / write round it / source the comics / say they’re ‘true loves’.

    This version of Laurel and Oliver, in this particular TV show, are not the same as Lois and Clark. There was never really anyone else for Lois or Clark. He certainly wasn’t banging her sister half the time because he couldn’t make his mind up.

    I have a sister, and she has a husband, and so I find the whole Oliver / Interchangable-Lance-sisters thing repugnant. Stomach-churning.

    There is nothing in the world that could make me root for Laurel / Oliver now – Laurel actually deserves better than that.

    This article has really burst my bubble of excitement for the last 5 episodes of the season :(

  26. Shakks April 15, 2014 at 2:28 am - Reply

    I was afraid they were going to hint at the Laurel/Oliver reboot again. It doesn’t really matter that it didn’t work in the first season right? Nothing against Cassidy, but for the love of god I cannot see any kind of chemistry with Amell. And the writers weren’t able to write Laurel in a way I could actually care about her. She’s been constantly a dead weight for me.
    When they brought Sara in, even if I find the actress a bit dull, she made a believable Black Canary, and I would love for her to stay. Wasn’t a fan of Sara/Oliver pairing again, but I see where it comes from.
    If Oliver Queen wants to be the Green Arrow, a hero, a better person, he needs to let go of the past, even romantically.
    I can see him working with Sara/Black Canary as allies, Laurel could even be the link of GA with justice (if only they could manage to write this thing decently)
    But no more rebooted and toxic relationships with the Lance sisters. If I were Laurel I would NEVER take him back.
    That’s why I also prefer him with Felicity. They are far from being a couple, but there is chemistry, there is an understanding, it can work. She can make him a better man.
    About comic canons: beside the fact that Black Canary/Laurel Lance is a much better person there, her relationship with Green Arrow it’s kinda MEH. I mean he cheated on her several times, they married and divorced. In the new 52 they never even married.
    Why on earth would I want to see this transported on a tv screen?
    I wanted to buy Laurel, I wanted to buy Laurivel, but never once I was given it.
    If they go this direction I’m not really sure I want to watch it, because no matter the fact it’s OQ’s story, relationships do matter.

  27. Sieg April 15, 2014 at 3:01 am - Reply

    To be fair guys he said “romantic or not”. Laurel not being a romantic interest for Oli but being someone who humanises and perhaps provides some grounding for him and Sara as they develop as heroes could be awesome. This could particularly important if they stakes get higher and more desperate with future villains.

  28. Carla Krae April 15, 2014 at 3:22 am - Reply

    Save me from shippers. Please, Arrow team, don’t be influenced by the whims of impatient young TV viewers. Your story is your story and writers have to have some integrity about it, or what’s the point.
    *
    *
    “we give people what they need, even if that’s not what they want,” he explained.” – Joss Whedon has said that for years, too. If an audience got their way all the time, they wouldn’t like it. Sad that people don’t realize that.

    • Ann April 15, 2014 at 6:37 am - Reply

      Yeah and all of Joss’ shows lasted a really long time.

      Oh wait.

      • BeFastOrDontBe April 15, 2014 at 8:36 am - Reply

        Whether they lasted long or not, pretty much all of them are held up by critics and fans alike as excellent shows. I think AoS is the only one of his shows that the critics felt was lacking and that seems to be more because of very tenuous connection to the MCU than anything else.

        • Ann April 15, 2014 at 8:54 am - Reply

          You missed the point. I adore Joss’ shows, Firefly is one of my favorite shows EVER, but the audience still didn’t stick around. And frankly, Joss never f*cked around with the fans to make them angry and tune off from the show.

          Laurel/Oliver is not what the audience wants or needs. You just can’t deny Laurel is the least liked character on the show for so many reasons other than shipping and trying to push something the audience clearly doesn’t want is just dumb. I know people are going to argue, but the ratings this season is a good proof of that. An episode that was promoted for weeks as Laurel centric was one of the lowest rated. The loss of focus on storytelling to focus on the Lance drama hurt the show, it lost over a million viewers. The producers can tell the story they want in a couple of seasons or they can bend and compromise with what they want to tell and what the audience wants for many seasons.

          I’m not going to point out everything that is wrong with Laurel and Laurel/Oliver because a lot of people already did that before me, but if the writers want their fans back and to keep a good chunk of their current audience, they need to stop beating this dead horse. People don’t hate Laurel because they’re supposed to hate Laurel, they hate her because she brings the show down.

          • BeFastOrDontBe April 15, 2014 at 8:58 am -

            And my point is… you don’t speak for me or “the audience”. You speak for you. Stop claiming otherwise.

        • Ann April 15, 2014 at 9:03 am - Reply

          I don’t have to speak for anyone, the ratings do :)

          • BeFastOrDontBe April 15, 2014 at 10:41 am -

            Yeah and the ratings prove that season one with the romantic focus being mostly on Lauriver were higher than season two’s ratings and that two of the highest rated episodes of 2014 are two of the heaviest Lance sister episodes.

  29. TheAppleFour April 15, 2014 at 4:10 am - Reply

    I think people are forgetting this is a TV show based on a comic book story, so yes the couple Oliver and Laurel are canon just like the other couple Andrew referenced in this article.

    The producers have a plan for their story and frankly if you don’t like it, then by all means stop watching and please stop whingeing about it.

    I swear I must watch a different show to some of the people in this comment section. Because you would have to blind Freddie if you couldn’t see the journey that Dinah Laurel Lance is making this season. But just in case you are, I think after 2.19 Man Under the Hood should start to confirm that she will become the Black Canary. Knowing Oliver and Sara’s alter ego secret is just another step towards reaching her alter ego.

    Mostly we are talking about a relationship that happened when they were just young and foolish. Not grown adults in a married relationship, there is a difference. I don’t condone the behaviour, but sometimes you can’t help the people you fall in love with. Of course their relationships are messed up because they are super hero characters, where they hide their identity to protect the people they love. They are not Mr and Mrs Jones who lives next door to you.

    So the Laurel/Katie haters who I’ve seen around the social media traps posting the same crap time after time, had better come to the realisation that they don’t dictate the storylines they TPTB do. God forbid the day they start listening to a minority online group, as the right to be creative will have once and for all been lost.

    So why not just the story line to develop organically like it is intended and enjoy the show for what it is. Of course, if you don’t any more then my all means swap to something else. But stop trying to direct the show from your living room chair.

    • Lauren April 15, 2014 at 10:22 am - Reply

      -”God forbid the day they start listening to a minority online group”
      I don’t have numbers to support this but the ratings and everything I see online tells me the avid “it must be Laurel and Oliver because of canon!!!” fans are the minority. Sorry, but I don’t buy your conclusion that Laurel/Oliver supporters are just busier than other fans and can’t comment as much.

      -”as the right to be creative will have once and for all been lost.”
      So..following comic book canon with endgames planned from season one and not letting your characters dictate the story as it goes is creative? That seems like the total opposite of creative to me…

      -”So why not just the story line to develop organically like it is intended and enjoy the show for what it is.”
      That’s what people upset with this interview want. We want it to develop organically and not have the hero’s endgame planned by season two.

      • Lauren April 15, 2014 at 10:24 am - Reply

        Oops you weren’t the one who said Laurel/Oliver supporters were too busy. That was someone above you. My apologies!

  30. Maria April 15, 2014 at 4:13 am - Reply

    A few additions to my previous post.

    1. I would say that the ratings are what REALLY matter to the network and the showrunners, because the ratings decide whether their show will survive or not. Twitter campaigns and online chatter are just “buzz” that might give them an idea about the preferences of the minority of viewers who are active in the online fandom….and I think the “Arrow” TPTB have been quite ready to cater to these fan preferences, while still telling the story they want to tell.

    Anyway, if we look at the ratings, the season one ratings were consistently much better (about a million more viewers) than the S2 ratings, despite the fact that Laurel and the L/O relationship had a more prominent role. If we look at season two, the episodes that featured more Olicity or more “original Team Arrow” didn’t get substantially better ratings than episodes which featured Sara or the Lance sisters and their “relationship melodrama”. “Heir to the demon” and “Birds of Prey” did just as well in the important demos as the Olicity/Felicity-heavy “City of heroes” and “Blast Radius”. The Flash episodes had very good ratings, but that’s IMHO because of the presence of an important DC hero.

    The argument that is often put forth by Olicity fans, ie. that the focus on the Lance sisters is detrimental to the show simply does not stand up to scrutiny, at least if we stick to the ratings. I believe that this is because the casual viewers do not watch for a specific ship or set of characters…they watch for the whole package/story, and if it is good they will continue to follow the series. And if some viewers have dropped off this season it is not because of Laurel (who didn’t get much screen time/storylines anyway) or Sara. It is probably due to the fact that they didn’t like the general direction of the show in season two (e.g. dropped storylines, poor character portrayal, melodramatic turns).

    2. I also find it hard to see how Laurel’s presence in Oliver’s life or even a possible romance can be that disastrous. I mean, for most of season one Laurel and Oliver were not in a relationship anyway, and after that last-minute hook up by the end of the season one they were separated again in season two. There were fourteen episodes in season two where they had no romantic interaction, and when Sara turned up their relationship became even more firmly entrenched in the friendship zone. I wouldn’t even call the Laurel/Oliver interaction a romantic relationship, at least not in comparison with the comic book Green Arrow/Black Canary relationship.

    It seems to me that the “Arrow” writers take the same “slow burn”/”will they won’t they” approach to all of Oliver’s relationships. They kept hinting at a possible Oliver/Felicity romance all through season two, but when Sara turned up Felicity went back to the friendship zone again. As for Sara and Oliver, they may be a couple, but we see little romantic interaction between them…in fact, we even got a rather odd scene between them where Oliver declares his love for LAUREL (“I love Laurel, too”)! The general impression is that the “Arrow” writers are not very good with romance and that they should maybe tone down that aspect and focus on the stuff they are good at.

    Finally, I think it’s too early to make any predictions about Laurel’s storyline in season three. For those who are not dead set against her it might turn out to be really enjoyable. I also think that some folks have to realize that not all viewers are as attached to a certain character/storyline as they are. There is no way of knowing what “the majority of the fans/viewers” want and there is no guarantee that the showrunners giving the alleged majority what they want will make the show any better for the audience at large. When the “Glee” writers started catering to certain shipper fan bases the show went downhill. I’m not against the writers going for an Olicity romance down the road, but I’m pretty sure that if they do, the comment sections and forums will be full of posters complaining about that relationship, too…because by giving SOME fans what they want, the TPTB will alienate other fans who have no interest whatsoever in an Olicity romance.

    • Craig Byrne April 15, 2014 at 8:19 am - Reply

      I don’t necessarily think the ratings have a lot to do with ‘ships – or at least I HOPE they don’t.

      From my own personal perspective, I think Arrow is a much better show than it was when it started, but last year the show also had the benefit of the Supernatural lead-out which did really well for them. Supernatural seems to help anything and everything it’s been paired with.

      • BeFastOrDontBe April 15, 2014 at 8:27 am - Reply

        The only people that think this shows ratings have to do with the ‘ships are the ones more interested in their ‘ship than the show.

      • Trish April 15, 2014 at 10:17 am - Reply

        Oh Craig, if this were any other network, I would agreed with you…on some level; however, this is CW. It’s ALWAYS about the ships. It’s time Arrow recognizes and values the validity of fangirls just as much as they seem to the comic book fanboys/girls. How is shipping romance somehow more annoying than love of action figures and comic book cartoon characters? LOL. It’s all a passion for what we love. After all, there is no hierarchy in fangirling and fanboying. We’re all too damn invested one way or another.

  31. shhhh April 15, 2014 at 5:08 am - Reply

    oliver and laurel FOREVEEEEEEEEEEERRRR
    i dont give a f88k about haters

  32. Barry April 15, 2014 at 7:11 am - Reply

    64 comments, since when are there so many people here? LOL

    • zee April 15, 2014 at 7:36 am - Reply

      I think Arrow’s Laurel and Oliver being compared to the iconic Lois and Clark–given that, you know, Clark never cheated on Lois and slept with her sister–has been very controversial because it’s utterly ridiculous. But I am holding on, to dear hope, that “whether that means romantic or not.”

      Leave Laurel on Arrow, and turn her into the BC (hopefully without killing Sara), but please let her move on from Oliver. Laurel fans everywhere should be clamoring for a different love interest for her.

      • BeFastOrDontBe April 15, 2014 at 8:21 am - Reply

        What exactly is Laurel supposed to move on from? Unlike some on the show, she’s actually got things to do without Oliver being the catalyst. She’s mended/mending things with Sara and Oliver. Haters always act like Laurel is pathetically obsessed with Oliver, like she hacked his grades or something, when she really hasn’t been. He’s the one that kept playing hot and cold with her when she and Tommy were together.

        I don’t care if they hook up again or not but you people seem to not even want them to be friends and there is no reason for them not to be friends.

        • zee April 15, 2014 at 12:00 pm - Reply

          Nope, I have NO issue with them being friends, AT ALL. I just hope she never, ever opens the door to a relationship with him. That’s it. There are a few posters here who are coming from a position of hating Laurel. That’s not me. I’m coming from a position of hating Laurel AND Oliver together in a romantic relationship. That’s it. So I am holding on to that “romantic or not” and hoping it’s the “not” part because you can get me on Team Laurel, but I will NEVER be on Team Lauriver.

    • BeFastOrDontBe April 15, 2014 at 8:22 am - Reply

      Since their ship just got “threatened” by Lauriver again.

      • Lauren April 15, 2014 at 10:30 am - Reply

        It’s not about shipping for many of us. It’s about the fact that the producer is hinting at forcing a toxic relationship again that makes the two characters in said relationship instantly less likable. Two important characters that viewers are supposed to like and root for.

        • BeFastOrDontBe April 15, 2014 at 10:37 am - Reply

          Oliver is toxic for everyone as he currently is and it has nothing to do with who he’s doing the horizontal mambo with.

          • Lauren April 15, 2014 at 11:23 am -

            Very true!

  33. Dan April 15, 2014 at 7:13 am - Reply

    For as much as I love many aspects of the show, I have to agree that the relationship between Oliver and the Lance Sisters is probably my least enjoyed part.

    I’m not into the whole shipping thing, but to me the sheer volume of history between the three of them creeps me out and thus breaks the immersion I feel with the show.

    The past half a dozen episodes have seen a regression in Oliver’s character, to me at least. He’s become far less likeable and more like his pre-island self.

    I think Laurel has the potential to be a good character, although it hasn’t been shown all that much so far. But her and Oliver together again? Its a bit immersion-breaking for me.

    If I had to choose someone for Oliver to end up with, I think Felicity is the best fit. Her character provides the luminosity required on Oliver’s dark and dangerous sojourn. But that’s just my opinion.

  34. BeFastOrDontBe April 15, 2014 at 8:15 am - Reply

    Oh, lookie. The Oliciters are threatened again. Just a few weeks ago they were all over Tumblr claiming Lauriver was dead and now that Kreisberg says, “well, no they aren’t”, they are back to spamming Laurel articles to give the impression that no one likes her.

    • Shakss April 15, 2014 at 8:51 am - Reply

      Moderators I have a question: the discussion have been pacific and interesting, and it has been about the characters.

      Why are you letting this person make disrespectful comments about the so called oliciters?

      • Craig Byrne April 15, 2014 at 8:53 am - Reply

        I just addressed this in a comment. :)

        • Ann April 15, 2014 at 9:23 am - Reply

          Apparently it didn’t have much effect. Oh well.

  35. Maria April 15, 2014 at 8:19 am - Reply

    zee, what is your take on “Klaroline” (Klaus and Caroline) on TVD? That’s a very unhealthy and messed up relationship and yet they have a huge online shipper fandom! They were even voted “The Most Romantic TV Couple of All Time”;-)

    http://blog.peopleschoice.com/2014/02/14/most-romantic-television-couple-of-all-time-winner/

    This is a bit off-topic, but it shows the CW writers propensity for melodramatic, over-the-top stories for their romantic pairings…

    I can understand if people fail to the romantic sparks between Oliver and Laurel, but in terms of fictional relationships their messy history is pretty standard. I personally don’t think that Stephen has much sensual “chemistry” with any of his female co-stars….and that includes Emily B.R. In fact, I see Oliver and Felicity more as friends or even siblings (at least until they started to become more touchy-feely with each other).

    • zee April 15, 2014 at 12:12 pm - Reply

      I don’t ship Klaroline. It isn’t about a ship for me. It’s that if the writers wanted me to invest in the Laurel-Oliver relationship, they shouldn’t have written the toxic backstory and then pursue a current love story between Oliver and Sara. Clearly, other people think that him sleeping with her sister and them moving past that can be filed under “romantic.” I have a different value system, which is fine. I happen to have certain rules about not sleeping with guys who have been with my sister–and my sister’s ex-bf actually asked me out two years after they broke up, and despite always having had a crush on him, I said HELL NO. I love my sister and myself too much to ever let a guy come between us, but my last name isn’t Lance.

  36. Maria April 15, 2014 at 8:41 am - Reply

    Alliances change, peoples interests change. Take a look at how popular EBR was in season 1? Even Stephen Amell says that Arrow wouldn’t have been the same without her.

    Yep, Felicity was very popular in S1 and there was a lot of buzz surrounding her. However, I have seen quite a lot of fatigue and annoyance with the whole Felicity/Olicity phenomenon lately,probably because some fans have become a bit tired of the incessant Olicity campaigning and the constant online promotion of a supporting character, sometimes to the detriment of other supporting characters, like Thea.

    I’m not saying that Felicity isn’t a good addition to the cast, I’m just saying that NOT all viewers/fans regard her as the best things since white bread. Lots of fans are more interest in Slade Wilson or other DC villains than in Felicity Smoak.

    Anyways back to my original point. Unless you poll the entire fandom, we won’t really know who loves whom more. But the fact that there are polls where hundreds of people show that Oliver/Laurel aren’t as popular as Oliver/Sara and even Oliver/Felicity says something more than 20 something people saying they love Laurel and Laurel/Oliver on an IMDB board. There are also articles about the most annoying characters on TV and guess who’s on it? Laurel. Maybe this is why people probably think that the majority of the fandom are annoyed/indifferent/hate/don’t like Laurel…

    I never said that the thread on the imdb board represent anything but a small sample, but at least it proves that Laurel Lance is not universally hated as some folks like to claim.

    You know, this whole discussion gives me flashbacks to “Smallville” and the reception of Lois Lane as portrayed by Erica Durance. Comment sections like these were filled with detractors who said that she was the worst Lois Lane ever and a useless character with all sorts of flaws, and that she completely lacked chemistry with Clark/Tom.

    Anyone who don’t believe me can check some threads at the Ksite SV forum or the TVoP SV forum. If the SV showrunners had listened to the dominant fraction among online fans they would have gotten rid of Lois Lane ASAP and let Clark hook up with Chloe Sullivan instead. However, Lois stayed on the show and gained acceptance for her role, and I presume that Laurel will stay as well, whatever happens between her and Oliver.

  37. Maria April 15, 2014 at 9:23 am - Reply

    I think this is the most balanced take on the whole Laurel versus Sara versus Felicity issuethat I have seen lately. Credits should go to Mandy at TV SourceMagazine, an entertainment journalist who covers CW shows. It’s a reply to a comment/ask about Sara’s popularity among the “Arrow” fans:

    It’s important to remember never to take what anyone on the internet says too seriously. No one knows for sure what the true majority of fans think. There are plenty of people who watch Arrow who have never once gone on Tumblr or Twitter or a forum to talk about the show. There are plenty of people who do frequent those places and keep their opinions to themselves because they’re not the type to get into fights with strangers online over fictional characters.

    Sara has a lot of fans. Laurel has a lot of fans. Felicity has a lot of fans. Some fans love all three, some have zero use for any of them because they’re only here for Oliver. No opinion is right or wrong.

    So my best advice to you is not to worry what other people are saying. Those fans have as much control over the show as you and I do – ZERO. In the end, all that matters is what the writers are going to do

  38. Hattie April 15, 2014 at 10:03 am - Reply

    Oh please. Don’t insult the amazing Lois and Clark by comparing the worst adaptation of Green Arrow and Black Canary. Never has their been a character so disliked by the majority as Laurel (shut up you’re so annoying i’m gonna fast forward your scenes) Lance.

  39. Lacey April 15, 2014 at 10:06 am - Reply

    Laurel Lance is fail. Forget ships. Her character sucks!

    I wish she died instead of my precious Tommy. When the rubble fell on her i was screaming “Die Laurel Die!” at the TV. She’s like King Joffrey the character you just want dead. No redeemed, not revamped, just dead.

  40. Ellie April 15, 2014 at 10:11 am - Reply

    Lol. I don’t even ship Olicity or Saliver, or anyone with Oliver actually. and I think Oliver/Laurel are repulsive. He screwed her sister. He slept laurel, then Sara, then Laurel, then Sara. It’s Lance vagina ping pong. It’s insulting. And Amell and Cassidy lack so much in the chemistry department that nothing can gloss over it.

    Those who ship Olicity or Saliver have no reason to be threatened.

    Oliver/Laurel are flat out rubbish together.

  41. arrowfan April 15, 2014 at 10:14 am - Reply

    @Maria

    Laurel has a lot of fans? Ahhaaa i’m ok with all the female characters on the show. But let’s not pretend. Majority of the fandom HATES Laurel with a passion. And it has nothing to do with Felicity. She’s received this hate from Day 1. People hate her character.

    She was named one of 12 Most Annoying Characters On TV Who Want To Make You Punch Your TV Screen.

    • BeFastOrDontBe April 15, 2014 at 10:35 am - Reply

      The opposite of love isn’t hate. It’s indifference. The fact that this article has gotten so many more comments than most just proves why the producers are apparently invested in Laurel even though, supposedly, the ‘entire’ audience hates her.

      • zee April 15, 2014 at 12:07 pm - Reply

        Dude. SO TRUE. They’re getting a response. Lauriver versus Olicity is getting them attention. Twitter, Tumbler, and GreenArrowTV are on fire. So, Laurel haters are actually ensuring that she stays on the show. Just something to keep in mind.

        That being said, I’m out. Peace everyone! I hope y’all enjoy the show for whatever reason you watch it. I’m off to write some fan fiction where Oliver takes a vow of celibacy. I’m totally kidding…about the fan fiction part. I meant everything before that. Have a wonderful, vitriol-free day!

    • Maria April 15, 2014 at 11:13 am - Reply

      @Arrowfan, I have a hunch who you are and where you’re coming from, so I see no point in replying. Most people here tried to have a civil discussion, but you and the rest of the folks who posted recently have no interest in that. You just want to slam and insult other fans and silence those who dare to have an opposing opinion. The thing is, nothing we write here will have much impact on what the writers will do with the show.

      And you’re you’re right “Arrowhead”, it’s just the same ole same Olicity versus Lauriver debate again, because to some folks that’s what this show is all about.

  42. Izzie April 15, 2014 at 10:20 am - Reply

    I love Laurel why the hell do they want to pair her with the man who cheated on her with her sister, then hooked up with her again?

    NO. This is horrible treatment of a female lead. I do not want her with Oliver at all. It is sick the way he has treated her. She deserves 1000% times better. Stop forcing Laurel into being a love interest she can exist as an individual character. Ollie Queen is a dog. He’s the Arrow a hero – but to Laurel, he treats her like a chew toy.

    Nope. I will not accept this nonsense. Superman was a gentlemen and treated Lois Lane with respect. HE DIDN’T SLEEP WITH LUCY LANE.

    I will flip out if they ever put her with him again. Once was enough thank-you.

  43. Arrowhead April 15, 2014 at 10:29 am - Reply

    OK everybody just chill out! I didn’t think that 1 interview would turn up SO many comments though when I looked it’s just the Olicity v. Lauriver debate. I mean just take it to the forum.

    • Mel April 15, 2014 at 1:16 pm - Reply

      Why if of some people don’t like (hate) Laurel or/and Oliver-Laurel relationship and they express their reasoning are classified as Olicity shippers?

  44. Littleme April 15, 2014 at 10:31 am - Reply

    You know what I find really interesting?

    In one side, they try very hard to make the fans love Laurel. She is the comic canon, she is supposed to be Oliver’s true love. So, they will try, again and again.

    But in the other side, they are not doing anything to promote her or the actress. Remember when at first, the episode “Time of Death” was supposed to be very “Laurel centric”, after all the reactions about 2×13, they changed their mind and told the press it very “Felicity centric”, when it was definitely not focused on her.

    Laurel’s actress is also the one we see the less on interviews or Comic Cons. Instead, Emily Bett Rickards is the one who is used to promote the show. She gives interviews, they ask her to live-tweet some episodes. She is useful, to them, as David Ramsey is, by the way.

  45. Zathe April 15, 2014 at 1:13 pm - Reply

    “Kreisberg is well aware that some fans have questioned decisions and the sanity of the folks bringing Arrow to life”

    Oh so they know but they keep doing it anyway. Well there is nothing more I can say about this, Im so done will all this insanity.

  46. BeFastOrDontBe April 15, 2014 at 2:09 pm - Reply

    FWIW I think all y’all are getting bent out of shape over nothing. AK spewed the exact same line about people being gratified by what happens when he was talking about Tommy last year. We all know what happened there.

  47. chiba April 15, 2014 at 8:21 pm - Reply

    I’m a little baffled by the reaction to this article. But, then again, I’ve come across it time and time again in other fandoms. The status of the actors are never random no matter what some may wish. Laurel/Katie is the female lead because the trajectory of her story is something that is just beginning. People act as if we are in S4 or S5. Her story is just beginning. Love stories don’t have to be morally clean or lacking in messiness. Often the best ones are the messiest. Their bond was established from day one. None of what was said in that article was all that shocking. The show has a lot more to offer than just this pairing, but it is an important part of Oliver’s story. I also don’t understand why people got so attached to Caity’s Sara. She was never going to stay. Laurel’s destiny was always to become Black Canary and her journey is just beginning. I am baffled by the amount of vitrol for this character.

    I am looking forward to how this story will play out despite all the hate being spewed towards Laurel much like it was bandied about towards Erica’s Lois.

  48. Maria April 16, 2014 at 2:51 am - Reply

    It’s a pity that the discussion descended into “neener neener” kindergarten levels when some folks decided to join the discussion…

    Anyway, I don’t really understand all the anger and anxiety. The “Arrow” TPTB are notorious for trying to cater to various fan bases in their public relations. I’m sure that pretty soon there will be interviews where Kreisberg et al will talk about “the development and deepeing of Oliver’s and Felicity’s relationship in season three”. Here is a funny blog post about the showrunners’ public relations:

    Hahahaha I just read the AK interviews. It’s like he’s saying “Oh hey, we have no clue what we’re doing, so yeah and then someone said “Let’s do this!” and we were all “Yeah, yeah man cool! Wow dude, you’re a genius! How did you even think of that? We’ve been so high eating pot brownies we don’t even know what we’re writing!”

    Meanwhile MG is sitting in a corner tweeting:

    MG:This is a Felicity Centric episode. *sends tweet*. No, no wait! *Beep*, I don’t know how to delete a tweet! “This is a Laurel Centric episode.” *sends tweet*

    AK: It’s all about Laurel-Oliver people!!!

    MG: Why won’t people stop asking me these stupid question “YO! Oliver’s maid? She was sent to Iron Heights for stealing for 10 year.” (Inserts evil laugh).

    AK: Lauriver!

    MG: Lauriver, wait Olicity, wait Soliver!

    GB: OLICITY

    Writers: LET’S WRITE THEM ALL! ALL MIXED TOGETHER

    AK, MG, GB: Yes! What a great idea!

  49. Maria April 18, 2014 at 6:47 am - Reply

    I just want to thank you Matt (Tucker) for your perceptive remarks in this thread, and say that I love your “Arrow” reviews!

  50. Lisa April 19, 2014 at 3:21 am - Reply

    I personally think Oliver has more chemistry with Laurel… I understand there are ALOT of olicity shippers.. which is great.. but, In just my opinion, It has always seemed how the show has been written and some of olivers lines this year that its always been and always will be laurel.. I would like though to see a Jealous Laurel watching oliver and felicty… I think that would make good tv :-)

  51. Jennifer Ann April 19, 2014 at 1:37 pm - Reply

    I love olicity :) and it is mostly because I am a woman and felicity is the one with the most respect for herself and oliver is the lost soul that needs saving! Neither Sarah or laurel can save themselves or their family let alone help oliver find himself and save the city. The only thing I’m going to say is that because were not sure what feliciy’s backstory is I wouldn’t be surprised if it wasn’t all sunshine and rainbows. I do think that oliver and felicity have the best chance to grow into something honest and loyal and that is something oliver and laurel/Sara can’t ever have wholly. There have been so many lies and disloyalty between oliver and laurel/Sara that it’s just plain unhealthy and a horrible example of respect and love!! I ship olicity because there are no lies, deciet, and they started out friends it could be something beautiful and in their world could use some beauty!

  52. Jennifer Ann April 19, 2014 at 2:00 pm - Reply

    And I know Sara can help save the city with her super girl skills but honestly all Sara oliver have is a miserable and dark past that haunts them both- they need different relationships to help distract and when the time comes can talk to someone that can just listen and maybe not fully understand but at least it’s a clean slate and I still say that felicity has some big things coming up and there’s no way that it’s all cheery and go team go lol I love her the most though and I can not see oliver with laurel/Sara honestly you do not need to have BC end up with oliver. It still on some level should definitely matter what fans think but there is a lot of controversy. I don’t think olicity would be good now, a slow love growth and then become something the last season!

  53. Lauralee April 21, 2014 at 12:41 pm - Reply

    Ok, here’s my take. It sounds like they are going to make Laurel and Oliver a couple by series end, or they will be end game, which I find disappointing. However, at the same time, I don’t think they have necessarily solidified that due to a few key statements: ‘so I think that Laurel will always be one of the closest people to him, whether that’s romantic or not,” Andrew continued. ‘ I feel this is the strongest statement. Because yes, he said they can take their time with Laurel and Oliver, but being that per the comics, the couple dated, broke up, slept around, married then divorced, there is a lot of play that can be done. So, they may take us through some of that, but my hope is they may not be end game because of so much volatility to play around with – what canon? lol. And yes, I do agree with many of the women who posted here – talking about going back to Laurel after being with Sara, again, is off – putting, and rather poor taste I feel. I too have a sister, and I would not trust the guy at that point. I don’t have any issues with Laurel or Sara, I like them individually, but not with Oliver. To each their own, but I only like Oliver and Felicity. I think Felicity character is good for Oliver, she keeps him grounded. They have a lot of chemistry. An important example of this is a clip from ep. 18, season 2. The clip begins at 30.49 and runs to 31.13. And hopefully, you might see what I am talking about. And yes, I would like to see the tech girl get the hunk. And I would like to see the show go against canon, they don’t have to stay canon, change can be done how or when you want. That’s how it’s been done with Ironman movies so far. :-) I liked what someone said earlier; that the show should not necessarily be dictated by the comics, but by the natural flow/direction of the characters. That’s pretty much it, thanks for reading. :-)

  54. Lauralee April 21, 2014 at 12:43 pm - Reply

    One more thing, they may not become end game, because if they have broken up, I don’t call that end game, it’s not finished, not written yet. :D

  55. Yess April 22, 2014 at 11:28 pm - Reply

    I regret clicking on this interview, but can I just say in Oliver’s words “I can’t keep having the same debate over and over again”

    Here’s my opinion Lauliver stopped working the moment they created Sara, like that pairing didn’t even give the audience a chance to really like the idea of Oliver and Laurel. Honestly I didn’t care for them in S1 the actors have no chemistry, I watched, I’m watching I don’t see it and less in S2. If there trying to have me like her as a future BC they have failed me. Even if she does became a version of the BC you still can’t take back the way they build her character in S1 & S2 in the show.

    Give me more ass kicking, I chose Sara Lance over Laurel Lance any day of the week. (I know it wasn’t the question, or was it?) Any way the reason I keep watching is for Team Arrow, Roy, Malcolm (can’t wait till he comes back), Slade, and for a while Walter love that guy and Quentin love that guy too on the show. And I love Felicity heck yeah, she makes scenes funny and more comic bookie because there humor among the drama.

  56. Lena Castor April 30, 2014 at 1:56 pm - Reply

    First off, I would like to say that we are the viewers of the show and we are the marketing for the show. If the show has no viewers then it tanks. So, why should we compromise on what we want (considering we are the ones spending an hour a week of our life watching this show) when without us you have nothing. While I can understand the need to stay in canon or to at least be inspired by the original comic books, it is the opinions of the fans watching this show that eventually should mean the most to the writers.

    I totally understand that writers have plans, but in the end you have to compromise at least some of those plans in order for the show to remain a success. The ratings (from the sources that I have found) show that the number of reviewers tanked 22% (still in counting) right after episode 2×13 “Heir to the Demon.” It has decreased veer since then. That alone should be proof that the writers/producers of the show have not done what the audience wants. Now, it is one things if it were just a problem with one or two episode (all seasons/shows have their duds) but when it is a series of episodes one right after the other, then clearly something is wrong.

    I am a writer first and foremost and as such I look for quality writing in anything and everything I read/watch. The writing for “Arrow” is very…ify…to say the least. There are way to many plot holes and lack of certain characters development that it really just irks me. The biggest example being Diggle and Felicity. Now, Digg we have learned a lot about, but he is a main Team Arrow member so there seems to me that more time should be devoted to him in general. Felicity has the biggest lack of character development: where does she live? does she have friends outside of arrow? what is her family life like? A couple of these have only recently been answered…well, half answered. But, there is clearly more to her then the writers of the show have given us.

    Now, as for the whole shipping nonsense — I am an Olicity fan, but I am first and foremost a Felicity fan and a Team Arrow fan. If Olicity never get together by the end of the show, then I can live with that. What I cannot live with is how Oliver treats his fellow Team Members in general.

    Oliver uses people. That is very clear. He flirted with Felicity the moment he met her in order for her to help him get what he wanted. He has continued to flirt and lead her and give her hope but never follows through on it. Is it because he just doesn’t want her to leave the team and he needs her skills? Or is it because he secretly has feelings for her? He practically forced her to give up her career in order to continue helping him (and after everything she has done for him, too). Plus, all the horrible treatment she gets from Isabel and the rest of Queen Consolidated since everyone thinks she sleeping with him even though she isn’t — so she also gave up her reputation for him. She seems to make Team Arrow her life while Oliver still gets to have a life outside of it even though he isn’t really deserving of it…that seems wrong.

    As for the Lance Sister Drama — personally if a show has to have meaningless sex to create Drama then the writers seriously need to reevaluate the respect they SHOULD have for their characters. I don’t mind sex on shows, but it needs to have a purpose other then…just meaningless sex and the Lance Sisters seem to be just that — two women whom Oliver can screw around with at his own leisure.

    Personally I have NEVER been a Laurel fan (even before Felicity came onto the show). She just doesn’t do it for me. She seems to see the world in a lot of black/white love/hate glasses, when in fact it is very grey. She also seems to hold herself above everyone else (not always, but most of the time). All through season 1 and the first half of season 2 she blamed Oliver and Oliver alone for Sara’s death and the whole cheating incident. When in fact, it takes two to tango — Sara chose to go on the Gambit with Oliver and cheat with him behind her sister’s back. She also chose to hop into bed with him the moment she gets back into town. Which brings me to the other point: Oliver spends so much time claiming love for one person (whether it’s Laurel or some other chick) but then sleeps with someone else instead of having a meaningful relationship. How does that prove his love for anyone but himself?

    As a human being, Laurel is a good person and wants to help those who can’t help themselves, but as an individual trying to have a relationship…she is seriously screwed up and most of the fault sits at Oliver and Sara’s feet. However, do any of you remember in season one episode 1×20 “Home Invasion” when Laurel takes in that orphaned kid and she and Oliver were planning on having lunch but Laurel kept it secret from Tommy (Oliver’s not the only one keeping secrets; Laurel was lying to Tommy too). And like so many before me on this thread have mentioned how DISGUSTING the love triangle between Sara/Oliver/Laurel is — I feel like that speaks for itself.

    While I love Sara as BC, I do not like her as just plane old Sara Lance — she slept with her sisters boyfriend and (like Oliver) claimed to want to fix things with Laurel but still jumped into bed with him…again. That doesn’t prove she loves her sister…just the opposite in fact. Like I said, as the BC she’s AWESOME, but as an individual — she sucks.

    I think the reason I love Felicity is because I (and I’m sure many others out there) can relate to her. She is a geek, a bookworm, a nerd, etc. She babbles and says/does embarrassing things (something we have all done a one point of another). She’s organic and seems to be the most realistic and human character (next to John Diggle) on the show. As such that is why I and I think many other Felicity Fans connect with her and why she is one of the favorite characters on the show.

    This leaves me with my next question for the writers: What kind of impression are you trying to send to the viewers (old or young…male or female)? That the nerdy girl is always going to be the weakest link? That the nerdy girl is always going to be the second best? Why can’t the buff hero fall in love with the nerd…for once?!

    Also, how come Felicity has yet to learn self defense? She is part of a team full of buff-hero-kick-ass-vigilantes…(Digg started teaching her in season one but what happened?) how come she is considered the weakest link?! Come on!!

    My last point is this: Oliver is NOT a hero! Sure, he is human and makes mistakes; and I know this is sort of an Origins story and he is supposed to grow as a character — but as humans we have the ability to learn from our mistakes. Oliver has had seven years (five on the island, season 1, and most of season 2) to become a better person from the man he was before the island, but he just keeps making the same mistakes over and over again. Sure, he’s human, but he never learns from his mistakes…..and there are only so many things that you can forgive a person for before they just never change and they fail you. And Oliver has completely fallen from grace. He is nothing more then a vigilante.

    And what did Rhas Al Ghul/Henri Ducard (from Christopher Nolan’s Batman Trilogy say about vigilantes?): “A vigilante is just a man lost in the scramble for his own gratification. He can be destroyed, or locked up.”

    Small Batman/Arrow comparison: Using the Christopher Nolan Trilogy once again, Batman/Bruce Wayne often pretends to be a womanizer and a drunk, but he never actually is. However, Oliver is not just pretending to be a jerk or a womanizer…he actually is one. It’s one thing to pretend to be one in order to protect your alter ego, but it is another thing entirely to become the monsters you hunt or the type of men you despise. Oliver is becoming his old self “Ollie” and is forever stuck in the past with the Lance sisters (whether it is permanent or temporary)…I have no interest in continuing to watch his epic downfall.

    What do the rest of you think?

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